Comments on South Belfast Diary: I-dentity

Dr A - You should never make assumptions about who...

2008-07-14T03:15:00.000+01:00

Dr A - You should never make assumptions about who is and is not being friendly! And actually I'm having the time of my life in Belfast, although you wouldn't believe it from this post. I just think it's about time people who have always lived in NI face up to the fact that some of them (not all, by any means, as I have emphasised) have a particular way of making it known that you're not allowed to have an opinion if you weren't born here. And that I will stick to.

Perhaps this is the time for me to reveal that although I wasn't born in NI and the accent doesn't fit, I'm actually the 5th generation of my family to live in Belfast....

P.S. I'm still in Chicago and yes, it's fab)

... ah Jenny, you have just moved the goal posts. ...

2008-07-11T13:26:00.000+01:00

... ah Jenny, you have just moved the goal posts. By mentioning North Belfast you led us to believe that it was the yahoos there who were responsible for such reprehensible behaviour but in fact it's the plonkers from Malone, Stranmillis etc and I think perhaps if they don't want to discuss elements of life here it may be because they don't want their pleasant little world being disturbed by such things as religious or political differences. Anyways I thought most of them were foreigners - they seem to inhabit a different world entirely from the rest of us plebs (c:
I have always thought, and still believe it to be true, that the people of Belfast are generally good natured and extremely helpful to strangers, in fact many will go out of their way to help someone. Did you not find when you first arrived that if you asked a local for directions they would actually spend some time giving you directions to ensure you arrived safe and sound?
How are things in Chicago? Are you having the time, the time of your life in Chicago, Chicago, that toddlin town?

Nick - OK, perhaps I was a bit hasty. I suppose wh...

2008-07-08T23:57:00.000+01:00

Nick - OK, perhaps I was a bit hasty. I suppose what I meant was that many people end up moving away from their country of origin and so adopting more complex allegiances - sometimes as a result of the conflicts you mention. But yes, there's still contested territory too. Let me think some more about this one!

Dr A - I always like it when someone who disagrees with me makes it plain they've really thought about the issue, so thanks for that. I'm certainly still thinking my way through the question, as you can see from my response to Nick - and very interestig it is too. I need to think through how and why I think what happens to me sometimes in NI is different from the examples you give. (And I reiterate that it doesn't happen all the time.) I suppose I'm talking about the use of identity as power, i.e. the message being 'you can't talk about this because you weren't born here'. And interestingly I didn't get it very much in North Belfast! - it's been in the more genteel areas that it's the worst, IMO. That's about power too, I suppose.

Hi Jenny, after giving this some thought I'm afrai...

2008-07-08T21:04:00.000+01:00

Hi Jenny, after giving this some thought I'm afraid I really have to disagree. It may well be as you say a control or territory thing but I believe in most cases it is more people's natural curiosity and a way of bonding and finding common ground. It's not peculiar to N. Ireland - I have had people in England, France and America ask about my background. Well my accent is unmistakably Belfast so people have, in the past, been curious about life during the troubles among other things. The Americans just love to know more about any foreign visitors, especially if they have shared ancestory - I had a black man in Denver tell me he was part Irish (his grandmother was from Ireland - I know, I laughed too but it is logical). A jolly French farmer told me how good it was that I was Irish (at least I wasn't German) but then told me 'not so good' because I was Northern Irish. We had a great night of drinking. An English couple I met in the Dordogne told me how uncomfortable they felt in a restaurant I had recommended because they thought everybody was talking about them for bringing a baby with them. So should I judge and say the English have an inferiority complex? They are not the only people to have said something like that but then in some cases it may have been true.
I really think that in your case that the area where you have been researching for your PhD isn't really the best to judge the rest of the country by. It is full of hardline loyalists and nationalists and not typical of most of the province and you do mention middle aged and elderly men being the worst offenders, again N.I. men can be really chauvinistic and patronising but the situation is improving and some of them are finally being dragged into the 20th century.
(yes I do mean 20th)

The decoupling of identity and territory? I don't ...

2008-07-08T08:57:00.000+01:00

The decoupling of identity and territory? I don't think so, unfortunately, J. Just look at Mugabe, or the raging xenophobia in Italy, or the Shias, Sunnis and Kurds in Iraq. Or many other examples. Too many people still think their identity is bound up with physical terrain rather than what they think or feel or know.

Hi Paul - You put it better than I could, includin...

2008-07-08T00:59:00.000+01:00

Hi Paul - You put it better than I could, including my growing feeling that when recent Westminster policy towards NI is examined by political historians they may well decide that there was too much expediency around the time you mention. Also you will know that some sections of the British Left find terrorism very sexy, because they've never had to consider it as an option themselves. Perhaps I should have emphasised more in my post that I wouldn't live anywhere else, except possibly Dublin.

I'm actually in Chicago right now, which is making me think even more about identity. I'm begining to wonder if the 20th century was about territory and the 21st is about the decoupling of identity and territory, due to globalisation. More posts to come on all this, I think.

Jenny, I know exactly what you are referring to as...

2008-07-07T23:56:00.000+01:00

Jenny, I know exactly what you are referring to as I have lived in NI. The point is that it is a society marred by conflict and as in the Balkans people welcome the outsider generally. However as part of that they wish to know which 'camp' the person is following. Northern Irish people are great with a wicked humour but it's natural in a way that people from a community like that would wonder of a stranger 'is he/she one of ours?' It will be very long before the society gets away from that. Hence the questions that seem to be asked that way. You didn't mention which community adopted this attitude with you the most but i feel I know the answer. With respect many prods do distrust liberal academic English types. I know that does not sound very nice but I feel it is true. I feel I can sometimes empathise with this to an extent. After all I can think of another academic Liberal Englishwoman, who was on record calling a mass murderer 'babe' unbelievable! I refer to the late and great Dr Mowlam who did great things perhaps but appeased some pretty rotten people in doing so and left many prods particularly those linked to the RUC/UDR feeling very undervalued.

www - this is all very reassuring! Perhaps, ref. D...

2008-07-04T22:36:00.000+01:00

www - this is all very reassuring! Perhaps, ref. Dr A, this kind of thing happens all over the world rather than just in divided societies. It's interesting that your accent evokes such a response - I've certainly found the same thing in Toronto with my English accent, but it doesn't get the same response here!

Great post, Jenny.I too have been targeted for the...

2008-07-04T16:44:00.000+01:00

Great post, Jenny.
I too have been targeted for the kind of questioning you get, particularly here in Newfoundland.
There is a distrust of immigration here as they are so used to emigration. But I find it a healthy curiousity and almost childlike to a huge degree ("you really, really like it here?").
What has always bothered me though is when I speak publicly, which I've had to do, and people come up to me afterwards and say:
"Oh I could listen to your accent forever!"
"Oh you sound like you're striaght off the boat!"
"Oh begorrah,top of the morning to yah!"
And no one, but no one, discusses the content of my talk.
GRRRRRR!
XO
WWW

Jenny,I'm very sorry to hear that - after eight ye...

2008-07-03T20:08:00.000+01:00

Jenny,
I'm very sorry to hear that - after eight years I would have thought you would have been accepted as part of the community. (Perhaps you're moving in the wrong circles)

I'm one very disappointed 'middle-aged to elderly man'

Dr A - very reluctantly, after 8 years of it, I ha...

2008-07-02T22:37:00.000+01:00

Dr A - very reluctantly, after 8 years of it, I have to say that my answer is non.

The reason is the context. For everyone who does it out of genuine curiosity, there is one who does it to make sure I know my place. I'm sorry to have to put it so bluntly but that has been my experience. I have to say that the worst offenders are middle-aged to elderly men. I'll keep quiet on the details of 'community background' - but one 'side' does seem to make a particular habit of it.

OK, I thought you were touching on the more seriou...

2008-07-02T21:48:00.000+01:00

OK, I thought you were touching on the more serious problem of immigrant bashing. But I thought everybody did this sort of thing - asking about the other person's background to get a broader picture of them, to see if they have anything in common or if they can bring a new experience to the table. I agree, a lot of it is about territory but sometimes not in a bad way, sometimes it can be a welcoming thing, a way to make an outsider feel at ease by showing an interest in them and their environment. N'est ce pas?

Yes the image is great - very well chosen.

Dr A - Not everyone reacts in the way I've describ...

2008-07-01T22:19:00.000+01:00

Dr A - Not everyone reacts in the way I've described, of course, but I'm begining to relaise it's not a coincidence that these questions get asked either straight after I've been introduced to someone (the 'placing' dialogue) or as a response to me expressing an opinion on local matters, which of course is trying to tell me to shut up - not easy! As far as moving here is concerned, in a cosmopolitan society the wish to settle somewhere should be treated with no suspicion whatsoever, despite the lack of sunshine! Unless of course the person concerned doesn't go out much, wears dark glasses all the time, and is always glancing over their shoulder....

I also didn't address the very serious issue of racial attacks, as what I'm talking about isn't in the same league. I don't agree that the people who do that sort of thing will attack anyone they envy, although of course they may well have been schooled in putting out the 'other lot' when they were younger, before moving on to foreigners. I'm aware that a lot of what goes on is about territory, which musn't be given up to anyone who is not from the same 'community background'.

And no, the picture isn't my own work, it's from google images - great, isn't it?

.. oh by the way - is the artwork your own creatio...

2008-07-01T21:55:00.001+01:00

.. oh by the way - is the artwork your own creation?

Hi Jenny,I'm not sure that I agree with your state...

2008-07-01T21:55:00.000+01:00

Hi Jenny,
I'm not sure that I agree with your statement that 'People are suspicious of outsiders' but I do agree that 'they can’t understand why anyone would voluntarily come to live here'. I, for one, am very curious, when I meet someone who has moved here from abroad, as to why they would want to move here. I can understand someone moving from London or the South of England (c: but moving here from Spain, Italy or France - they must be out of their minds - and that is probably a good reason to be suspicious of them. A place really needs more than a beautiful location and scenery, a wee bit of sunshine wouldn't go amiss which is why I will be heading to the south of France in the not too distant future (location, scenery and sunshine - what more could you ask for? Oh yes, good food and wine).
I know, I know there is a more serious side to this - we hear constantly of attacks on foreign immigrants but the yahoos who carry out that sort of hate campaign don't care if the object of their hatred is black, white, Polish or Irish. If you're different, more clever, more successful than they are then you will probably become a target for their violence.